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Weird sentence under the History section

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>>According to Professor Baloch, the climate of Balochistan was very cold and the region was inhabitable during the winter so the Baloch people migrated in waves and settled in Sindh and Punjab.[25]<<

Does this sentence make sense? If the region was very cold, was it hard to inhabit? And was this then a reason for them to migrate?

This sentence right now doesn't make sense to me. There seems to be some sort of contrast that doesn't work.

personal commentary!

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Haven't checked the rest of the cited citations yet. In the context has been added:

" Although they kept flocks of sheep, the Baloches also engaged in plundering travelers on the desert routes. This brought them into conflict with the Buyids, and later the Ghaznavids and the Seljuqs. Adud al-Dawla of the Buyid dynasty launched a punitive campaign against them and defeated them in 971–972."


but I found no such mention in that source. It is clear personal commentary. Balash-Vologases (talk) 20:07, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

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I removed Deobandi and Barelvi In the text of articleو

In the religion section you added: @Metamentalist

: 64.78% are Deobandis, 33.38% are Barelvis, and 1.25% are Ahl-i Hadith

These two revivalists movement are only practiced by few Balochs of Pakistan and not followed in other Baluch-populated areas in Iran, Afghanistan and etc.

Deobandi and Barelvi are not mentioned in the valid sources and studies that represent the religion of the Baloch.[1][2]

I've checked all the sources, and none of them , mention that the Baloch religion shows "Deobandi and Barelvi " . Or anything along those lines. Seems only few Balochs in Pakistan follow those sects not generally correct about other Baloch. Balash-Vologases (talk) 16:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC) Balash-Vologases (talk) 19:46, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello dear, I've added the exact Tables from the source about the denomination (Barelvi, Deobandi or Ahl e Hadith), these are for Pakistan (and it has been precised "in Pakistan" in the text), I don't know about dynamics for Baloch elsewhere even if I think Deobandism is strong in Iran, please don't edit legitimate information and sources, thanks for your understanding. Metamentalist (talk) 13:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sources don't support your claim, vast majority of the baloch don't subscribe those movements. Barelvi, Deobandi are are not Islamic religions, they are just political approaches.
In all sources, the Baloch religion is described as Sunni Islam with a Shiite minority.[3][4][5]
please read WP:RS this time, as well as WP:PST and WP:EXTRAORDINARY. And just from a quick glance the source presents LOADS of theories, yet you're cherrypicking the ones you favour the most. Balash-Vologases (talk) 15:23, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Topic

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@Wikaviani How is adding just "iranic people" appropriate when Baloch are an admixed population of different ethnicities? [1] Here is a source speaks of them being genetically related somewhat to the Indo Aryan Punjabi ethnic group, [2] while one speaks of them having sub subsaharan African admixture and upto 45% South Asian ancestry. And this [3] speaks of assimilated of an Indian race into the Baloch confederation? It is better to remove it instead of adding all these different ethnicities Axedd (talk) 22:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't care about genetics here, Balouch people speak a Western Iranian language, therefore, they are considered to be an Iranian people. Check the wikipedia definition of Iranian peoples here : "The Iranian peoples, or the Iranic peoples, are the collective ethno-linguistic groups who are identified chiefly by their native usage of any of the Iranian languages, which are a branch of the Indo-Iranian languages within the Indo-European language family.". Also, genetic studies may be misleading sometimes, as people don't really understand what they say (what are we talking about ? autosomal studies ? haplogroups ? MTDNA admixtures ? Y chromosome admixtures ? etc ...). Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So how is adding "iranic people" in the related ethnic groups not misleading when its usage extends to actually genetically/ethnically related groups on almost all articles?? It should be changed to Indo-Iranian people to look less misleading like it was before the recent changes Axedd (talk) 22:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See for example Hungarians speaking a non Indo European language but mostly European by ancestry don't have a related ethnic group mentioned at all Axedd (talk) 22:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because at Hungarians, the article gives a geographic description, not an ethnic description, the article says : "Hungarians, also known as Magyars (/ˈmæɡjɑːrz/ MAG-yarz; Hungarian: magyarok [ˈmɒɟɒrok]), are a Central European nation and an ethnic group native to Hungary".---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 22:53, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My point is they don't mention Finno Uralic people being related to them, as that's just part of the story, hence left out. Axedd (talk) 23:19, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple sources are classified Baloch as an Iranic group.[6]Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).
: while one speaks of them having sub subsaharan African admixture and upto 45% South Asian ancestry
So, just because a minority group lives among the Baloch, were you intending to suggest in the article that Baloch is not an Iranic!!
: Baloch are an admixed population of different ethnicities

Firstly, the Baloch are not a mixed population of different ethnicities!!! On the contrary, the Sindh and Punjab have a large Baloch population who have been absorbed into the Sindhi and Punjabi communities.[7][8][9][10]Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page).

Balash-Vologases (talk) 05:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They are. At least in Pakistan as the sources suggest. Also, the Iranian people article itself discusses this on the genetics section, that the R1a haplogroups is more common in the south and east (where the Baloch live) than the rest of Iran because of gene flow from neighbouring Indian ethnicities. Axedd (talk) 13:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a complete falsehood , Also pashtuns carry R1A as their haplogroup[11] and the dominant paternal haplogroup among modern Tajiks is the Haplogroup R1a[12]
But both of these ethnicities are classified as Iranian ethnicities. What's the metric for being Iranic?! Baloch, despite being in the East of Iran, is a Western Iranian language more closely related to Kurdish than Indian!!
Not a single source mentions the Baloch being Indian or part of India.
The presence of the Baloch among the Indian tribes dates back to the Talpur period(Baloch rulers of sindh), like the Turks and the Mughals, ruled a large part of India. This does not imply that the Mughals are an Indian race/ethnicity, just because they once ruled those areas. Balash-Vologases (talk) 14:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pashtuns and Tajiks are unrelated to Baloch and are instead eastern iranians. Does any source speak of Baloch being related to them or or exclusively to west Iranians? R1a haplogroup is also higher all over Pakistan than Iranians from Iran. Baloch/South Iranians are an exception. Plenty of sources that actually speak of assimilation of Sindhi races into Baloch (example in my first comment). It is better not mention this at all unless other assimilated ethnicities are also mentioned. Axedd (talk) 15:37, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what your response has to do with my statement. Please read my statement properly, I did not cite the connection of Baloch to Pashtuns and Tajiks, If you're referring to the genetic, that's what I'm speaking of. If the genetic is a criterion for classifying a group of people into an ethnic group familly, then why aren't Pashtuns and Tajiks, classified in Indian ethnics familly? eventhough they carry the highest of R1a as their haplogroups, in the info box of Tajiks and Pashtuns are mentioned Iranian peoples!!
: Plenty of sources that actually speak of assimilation of Sindhi races into Baloch
In 1981 census, only 8.5 million were originally sindhis, 4 million Baloch lived in sindh(1981),[13] Meaning in the Sindh the land of Sindhis The Baloch were the second most populous ethnic group(in 1981). Based on your logic Apparently the term of "assimilation" or "admixture" should only be used for Baloch and not for other ethnic groups even with clear evidence and studies!!
: Does any source speak of Baloch being related to them or or exclusively to west Iranians?
Balochi belongs to the Western Iranian subgroup, and its original homeland is suggested to be around the central Caspian region.[14][15]
Please take look at the article Baloch–Kurdish relations. The article provides sufficient evidence on the subject which you also erroneously claimed there's no connection between Baloch and west Iranians. Balash-Vologases (talk) 17:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I never claimed so. Sindh having a "Baloch" population is irrelevant. Baloch being a mixture between west Iranians and nw Indo Aryans is why I'm suggesting that the related group section should be removed as its vague. Axedd (talk) 17:50, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[4] Here is a source speaks of them being genetically related somewhat to the Indo Aryan Punjabi ethnic group, [5] while one speaks of them having sub subsaharan African admixture and upto 45% South Asian ancestry. And this [6] speaks of assimilated of a sindhi race into the Baloch confederation. Either add these groups on the repeated ethnic groups as well as Wikipedia is based veriable sources not personal opinions of users. Axedd (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Metamentalist As a recent editor on the topic, what do you think? Should the iranic people be removed or kept along with other assimilated ancestries? Axedd (talk) 18:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I provided enough evidence, also your contains have clear WP:OR. Stop adding materials by your personal analysis. Balash-Vologases (talk) 19:13, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikaviani
@HistoryofIran
Please protect the article, Kindly take look at the talk page. Balash-Vologases (talk) 19:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, what is going on? If I'm understanding right, its about genetics and ethnicity, which are two different things. Ethnicity is not determined by genetics, but by culture and language. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The user "Axedd" is trying to deny the identity of Baloch people even with the clear evidences as I cited above. Also based on what he has been cited, he/she doesn't appear to have the knowledge to contribute here! He has claimed the Baloch are not Iranian because They carry the haplogroup R1a as their genetics. Even according to his citation[7] in the article state cited :
: This has been seen that the Pashtun and Balochi speaking populations (Pathan and Baloch) showed more genetic affinity with the Central Asian, Afghan, and Iranian populations.
Also pashtuns and Tajiks carry R1a as the dominant haplogroup in their genetic but they are considered as Iranic peoples.
Also Balochi Language is classified as the Western Iranian languages.
His contributions appear to be disruptive as he did at Baloch people removed a part of infobox(Related ethnic groups) without adequate explanation. He continually insert himself by adding his personal analysis. I ask from moderators to stop him from spreading his synthesis.
Thanks for taking time.
Regards. Balash-Vologases (talk) 15:23, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You just misrepresented everything I said with half truths and or didn't actually bother to read the whole convo. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources (which I've given above) not your personal analysis. I never said Baloch are not Iranian because they carry R1a as their haplogroup, I just quoted the Iranian people's genetic section as a testament to why Baloch are an admixed population of both Iranian and Indus valley/South Asian people. My actual reasoning and sources about how and why already stated above. Axedd (talk) 16:41, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't add personal commentary, my first citation came from :
Frye(2005) :: Iran means all lands and people where Iranian languages were and are spoken, and where in the past, multi-faceted Iranian cultures existed."
:Modern Iranian peoples include the Baloch, the Gilaks, the Kurds, the Lurs, the Mazanderanis, the Ossetians...."
Also the second text is directly from iranicaonline :
:The language of the Baluch (Balōč), is a member of the Western Iranian group of languages, bearing affinities to both main representatives of Western Middle Iranian"
But your second citation is a paper which merely has done on Genetic and in the context clearly cited :
:However, the Baloch population also had a genetic contribution from Sub-Saharan African populations, which may be remnants of African individuals settling in the Indian subcontinent"
As the paper conducted on Genetic and not a study about history, They didn't distinguish between Baloch and Siddi.
Siddis are a distinct ethnicity group scattered across various regions of Sindh, Balochistan, and India, and have adopted the culture and language of the regions in which they have settled. It doesn't make sense, a small minority lives among the Baloch and exists in other areas.
Your first citation as you cited : "Here is a source speaks of them being genetically related somewhat to the Indo Aryan Punjabi ethnic group."
You ignored the most parts of the article and cherrypicking the one you favour the most. First, the article doesn't suggest Baloch genetically related somewhat to the Indo Aryan Punjabi ethnic group,
:Haplogroup E (9%) Punjabi Sindhi, Pathan, and Baloch populations was 3, 8, 13, and 11%
:Haplogroup J (20%) 24, 18, 24, and 16% in Punjabi, Sindhi, Pathan, and Baloch
:Haplogroup I (9%) unjabi, Sindhi, Pathan, and Baloch populations was 2, 12,13, and 10%
Please quote where in the source it suggests Baloch genetically related somewhat to the Indo Aryan Punjabi ethnic group!! as you cited in your statement.
Baloch and Punjabi share nothing in common, linguistically, culturally and even historically. Just because there is one shared component of genetic between Baloch and Punjabi were you intending to suggest that Baloch genetically related somewhat to the Indo Aryan Punjabi ethnic group!! Not to mention that there is also a close relationship between Pashtuns, Punjabis and Sindhis (according to that source).
my contribution on this subject is going to an end. Sorry, but the next time you make the comment, I’m not going to replay as your knowledge is already exposed to me! What you're trying to say doesn't make any sense! relation between Baloch and Punjabi or Baloch and any Indian ethnic group is a new theory which is only exist in your analysis not in any valid and legitimate publications. Balash-Vologases (talk) 19:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Balash-Vologases, I already explained to Axedd why it is relevant to keep in the infobox the sentence about other Iranian peoples. It is also said in the lead that Baloch people's language is a western Iranian language, I think it's fair enough. Please let me know if you think I'm missing something. Best.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 14:45, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Korn, Jahani, Titus, Agnes , Carina , Paul Brian (2008). The Baloch and Others Linguistic, Historical and Socio-political Perspectives on Pluralism in Balochistan. Reichert Verlag. p. 12. ISBN 9783895005916.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  2. ^ "Baloch people". Encyclopædia Britannica.
  3. ^ Malik, Fida Hussain (2020). Balochistan A Conflict of Narratives. Saiyid Books. p. 175. ISBN 9789692200028.
  4. ^ Louër, Laurence (2020). Sunnis and Shi'a A Political Histo. Princeton University Press. p. 159. ISBN 9780691234502.
  5. ^ Ahmady, Kameel (2013). From Border to Border Research Study on Identity and Ethnicity in Iran. Avaye Buf. p. 100. ISBN 9788794295314.
  6. ^ Frye 2005, p. xi: "Iran means all lands and people where Iranian languages were and are spoken, and where in the past, multi-faceted Iranian cultures existed."
  7. ^ Siddiqi, Farhan Hanif (2012). The Politics of Ethnicity in Pakistan: The Baloch, Sindhi and Mohajir Ethnic Movements. Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-68614-3.
  8. ^ Wagha, Ahsan (1990). The Siraiki Language: Its Growth and Development. Dderawar Publications.
  9. ^ Khan, Hussain Ahmad (2004-08-01). Re-Thinking Punjab: The Construction of Siraiki Identity. Research and Publication Centre, National College of Arts, Lahore. p. 87. ISBN 978-969-8623-09-8. In the 1960s, some writers and intellectuals from southern Punjab convened a meeting and decided to discard home-sprung names like Multani, Muzaffargarhi, Uchi, Riasti, Derewali, Hindko, Jaghadali, Thalchari, Lahnda, Jatki, and Balochki often used for the local languages and replace them with a single word "Siraiki".
  10. ^ Schiffman, Harold (9 December 2011). Language Policy and Language Conflict in Afghanistan and Its Neighbors: The Changing Politics of Language Choice. BRILL. p. 332. ISBN 9789004201453. The Baloch in Sindh and South Punjab can speak four languages: Balochi, Sindhi, Panjabi and Saraiki.
  11. ^ Lacau, Harlette; Gayden, Tenzin; Reguerio, Maria; Underhill, Peter (October 2012). "Afghanistan from a Y-chromosome perspective". European Journal of Human Genetics. 20 (October 2012): 1063–70. doi:10.1038/ejhg.2012.59. PMC 3449065. PMID 22510847.
  12. ^ Wells, RS; Yuldasheva, N; Ruzibakiev, R; et al. (August 2001). "The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity". Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 98 (18): 10244–9. Bibcode:2001PNAS...9810244W. doi:10.1073/pnas.171305098. PMC 56946. PMID 11526236.
  13. ^ John, Wilson (2009). PakistanThe Struggle Within. Pearson Longman. p. 28. ISBN 9788131725047.
  14. ^ Elfenbein, J. (1988). "Baluchistan iii. Baluchi Language and Literature". Encyclopedia Iranica. Retrieved 30 December 2014.
  15. ^ Carina،Korn, Jahani،Korn (2003). The Baloch and Their Neighbours. Reichert. pp. 49, 314–317, 248, 260. ISBN 9783895003660.
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